Ventilators not needed do more harm ; interesting strange elements of severe kung fku

fide

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What’s driving this reassessment is a baffling observation about Covid-19: Many patients have blood oxygen levels so low they should be dead. But they’re not gasping for air, their hearts aren’t racing, and their brains show no signs of blinking off from lack of oxygen.

That is making critical care physicians suspect that blood levels of oxygen, which for decades have driven decisions about breathing support for patients with pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, might be misleading them about how to care for those with Covid-19. In particular, more and more are concerned about the use of intubation and mechanical ventilators. They argue that more patients could receive simpler, noninvasive respiratory support, such as the breathing masks used in sleep apnea, at least to start with and maybe for the duration of the illness.



This relates to info @FreddieMiles posted from NYC ER Doc week ago



so.. Since 80% put on vent croak, how many will the doctors admit that they killed them with the vent???

@Gian spaghetti brother if you think can be done better go for it
 
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Garfisch

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It sounds as if the disease might be causing venoarterial shunting within the pulmonary vasculature. Some have also suggested a possible hemoglobinopathy - affecting the ability of red blood cells to carry oxygen. Another possibilty is a microvascular thrombotic phenomenon where there is a widespread partial blockage of very small lung blood vessels by tiny blood clots or protein deposits. The mistake many critical care doctors made initially has been in treating the disease as JUST A FLU BRO when in fact it is something different.

I don’t think the article is saying ventilators do more harm than good. Ventilators can do harm in all diseases where they are part of the management - the trick is to use them when there are no other options and the benefit outweighs the risk. Following some opinions published by Chinese ICU doctors, western docs have been ventilating people too early before exhausting the other opportunities and causing net harm rather than good.

About 10 years ago an international team of doctors scaled Mount Everest and started testing each others’ blood oxygen measurements in a lab near the summit approaching the ‘death zone’. They found these were so low, that they couldn’t see how they were alive based on their experiences of the same with sick people, yet their brains and other organs seemed to be working more or less fine. They concluded that some of the techniques doctors are routinely using to estimate oxygen availability to body tissues in guiding decisions to ventilate people must be wrong. The SARS experience must be drawing some light back on this.
 
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Gian

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This relates to info @FreddieMiles posted from NYC ER Doc week ago



so.. Since 80% put on vent croak, how many will the doctors admit that they killed them with the vent???

@Gian spaghetti brother if you think can be done better go for it
I think you’ve done a fine job. 😂.

So with this information one hopes that
1. They will stop begging for more ventilators
2. They will stop using them.

There‘s this I came across; sure hope Cuomo quits his bleating and nagging:

 

Gian

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It sounds as if the disease might be causing venoarterial shunting within the pulmonary vasculature. Some have also suggested a possible hemoglobinopathy - affecting the ability of red blood cells to carry oxygen. Another possibilty is a microvascular thrombotic phenomenon where there is a widespread partial blockage of very small lung blood vessels by tiny blood clots or protein deposits. The mistake many critical care doctors made initially has been in treating the disease as JUST A FLU BRO when in fact it is something different.

I don’t think the article is saying ventilators do more harm than good. Ventilators can do harm in all diseases where they are part of the management - the trick is to use them when there are no other options and the benefit outweighs the risk. Following some opinions published by Chinese ICU doctors, western docs have been ventilating people too early before exhausting the other opportunities and causing net harm rather than good.
I was going to ask you a couple of questions but then saw that you had added a paragraph that more or less answered them. So I went to delete my response and couldn’t find how to. Anyone know?
 

Garfisch

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They’ll need more non-invasive ventilators (NIV/CPAP/BiPAP) possibly. These are smaller and cheaper and need fewer highly-trained staff to use them. LOL Cuomo’s probably got (((friends))) in the ICU ventilator and medical training industries...
 

Vitamin-KKK

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About 10 years ago an international team of doctors scaled Mount Everest and started testing each others’ blood oxygen measurements in a lab near the summit approaching the ‘death zone’. They found these were so low, that they couldn’t see how they were alive based on their experiences of the same with sick people, yet their brains and other organs seemed to be working more or less fine. They concluded that some of the techniques doctors are routinely using to estimate oxygen availability to body tissues in guiding decisions to ventilate people must be wrong.
Yes, this is why retrospective analyses are important. The precision of measurement ultimately doesn't matter if the thing being measured doesn't actually have the predictive force ascribed to it.

You can see this with the conventional treatment of diabetes (type 2) for many decades now. Blood glucose levels became the driver of the entire treatment protocol, with the idea that lowering those levels means effective treatment. Newer understanding of the complex metabolic processes now suggest otherwise. The real damaging agent in type 2 diabetes is insulin resistance and the subsequent high blood insulin levels that result from the body trying to compensate by releasing more and more insulin -- a classic positive feedback loop. Elevated blood glucose is an indicator of an insulin defect, more than a causative agent itself. This misunderstanding led to the over prescription of insulin treatment, under the idea that it helps because it causes blood glucose levels to drop in the short term. It actually makes things worse because it exacerbates already elevated levels of insulin, and also causes weight gain which in turn results in even more insulin resistance.

Errors of measurement and confusion of cause and effect are perennial problems in medicine.
 

Garfisch

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You can see this with the conventional treatment of diabetes (type 2) for many decades now. Blood glucose levels became the driver of the entire treatment protocol, with the idea that lowering those levels means effective treatment. Newer understanding of the complex metabolic processes now suggest otherwise. The real damaging agent in type 2 diabetes is insulin resistance and the subsequent high blood insulin levels that result from the body trying to compensate by releasing more and more insulin -- a classic positive feedback loop. Elevated blood glucose is an indicator of an insulin defect, more than a causative agent itself. This misunderstanding led to the over prescription of insulin treatment, under the idea that it helps because it causes blood glucose levels to drop in the short term. It actually makes things worse because it exacerbates already elevated levels of insulin, and also causes weight gain which in turn results in even more insulin resistance.
Absolutely. I have seen people taken off of triple-agent T2DM therapy simply by getting them to lose weight and fast for one day per week. It’s a classic example of how strategies are such a threat to products, and are thus undermined by the establishment which is fed by the drug industry. The industry wants us sick, miserable, addicted to products and bereft of solutions...
 

JR_Rustler_III

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The real damaging agent in type 2 diabetes is insulin resistance
Yes. This is the real problem but nobody seems interested in discovering how so many people are acquiring insulin resistance. We know it's related to obesity and lifestyle problems but we've always had fat people and until 30 years ago they didn't seem to become insulin resistant at the same rates they are today.

Something is clogging up/debilitating insulin receptors at the cell level. Presumably a bunch of jews are making money off of whatever that is, otherwise you'd think we'd have figured this out by now. I suspect it's related to HFCS and Aspartame, as those seemed to get introduced into our diets right around the time diabetes started to take off

@Garfisch thoughts?
 

Gian

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Just take hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin, favipiravir or the BCG vaccine. That shit works. Don't trust Bill Gates. He's trying to microchip ya'lls asses.
I keep thinking you’re that Breivik guy in your avatar😂
 

JR_Rustler_III

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so.. Since 80% put on vent croak, how many will the doctors admit that they killed them with the vent???
It's not necessarily the ventilator that kills them, but rather that the ventilator simply didn't cure them. The real problem with ventilation is that it causes lung damage so if the patient recovers, they have lung damage for life. Some people are saying the virus targets the hemoglobin in red blood cells and somehow disables the ability of red blood cells to take up oxygen. Very weird

https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/fs58u7
 

fide

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It's not necessarily the ventilator that kills them, but rather that the ventilator simply didn't cure them. The real problem with ventilation is that it causes lung damage so if the patient recovers, they have lung damage for life. Some people are saying the virus targets the hemoglobin in red blood cells and somehow disables the ability of red blood cells to take up oxygen. Very weird

https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/fs58u7
yes

The information given was that they have an oxygen problem not a breathing problem, hence a vent , with its built in downsides, is obviously not a help, but is a hurt. Something like a vent is all about balancing is x worse than y. You accept damage x because it's less bad than y. But here, it doesn't help the actual problem, so it's all downside on the vent, no upside. Adds more trauma with no juice for the squeeze. It's checking your battery to fix the flat tire.

As to the very weird.. Oh yes bro, very. Makes one wonder..
 

Vitamin-KKK

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Something is clogging up/debilitating insulin receptors at the cell level. Presumably a bunch of jews are making money off of whatever that is, otherwise you'd think we'd have figured this out by now. I suspect it's related to HFCS and Aspartame, as those seemed to get introduced into our diets right around the time diabetes started to take off
From what I understand, there is definitely a strong link to HFCS becoming ubiquitous in the 80s. That's also when rates of obesity and diabetes began to rapidly climb. Development of type 2 diabetes is related to fatty deposits in and around the abdominal organs, especially the liver and pancreas. HFCS is particularly bad in this regard because fructose can only be metabolized in the liver, where all that excess sugar gets stored as fat and eventually spills out into the pancreas.
 

fide

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From what I understand, there is definitely a strong link to HFCS becoming ubiquitous in the 80s. That's also when rates of obesity and diabetes began to rapidly climb. Development of type 2 diabetes is related to fatty deposits in and around the abdominal organs, especially the liver and pancreas. HFCS is particularly bad in this regard because fructose can only be metabolized in the liver, where all that excess sugar gets stored as fat and eventually spills out into the pancreas.
that.. And also the plastics. We know the plastics wreak havoc with hormones, increase estrogen, who knows what else. HFCS is a direct line to the obesity, but underneath the plastics are playing another malign role. These fucking doctor frankensteins have set is up for disaster.
 

terrygrip

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This relates to info @FreddieMiles posted from NYC ER Doc week ago



so.. Since 80% put on vent croak, how many will the doctors admit that they killed them with the vent???

@Gian spaghetti brother if you think can be done better go for it
I wonder though, if you're in bad enough shape to require a ventilator vs just pure O2, maybe you were going to die anyways.
 

fide

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I wonder though, if you're in bad enough shape to require a ventilator vs just pure O2, maybe you were going to die anyways.
often yes, if one is 97 every day is borrowed time, but there are many being given hydroxychloroquine when getting to that vent stage that rebound (of course it's insane that the doctors aren't giving it EARLIER , asap, then many would not even get to vent stage.. But if your 97, or dying from other shit anyway, yeah it's one more thing.
 

Garfisch

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Something is clogging up/debilitating insulin receptors at the cell level. Presumably a bunch of jews are making money off of whatever that is, otherwise you'd think we'd have figured this out by now. I suspect it's related to HFCS and Aspartame, as those seemed to get introduced into our diets right around the time diabetes started to take off

@Garfisch thoughts?
There has been increased interest over the past decade in the effects of diet upon the bacterial content of our guts in mediating both obesity, patterns of obesity and susceptibility to type 2 diabetes. This brings up the obvious suggestion that if, given the increasing evidence of a concerted and deliberate assault upon our wellbeing in general, our diets are being manipulated through efforts within the food industry to cause changes in gut flora by changing the nutritional, bacteriological and chemical content of mass-produced foods. I mean, I would not be surprised.

 

Garfisch

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The information given was that they have an oxygen problem not a breathing problem, hence a vent , with its built in downsides, is obviously not a help, but is a hurt. Something like a vent is all about balancing is x worse than y. You accept damage x because it's less bad than y. But here, it doesn't help the actual problem, so it's all downside on the vent, no upside. Adds more trauma with no juice for the squeeze. It's checking your battery to fix the flat tire.
Yeah, the causative factor is unclear, but a microthrombotic phenomenon is one possibility, given the propensity for fibrin-related markers to be elevated on blood workup in SARS-Cov2 patients. If this is occurring in the post-alveolar circulation, you can see why increasing ventilatory pressures could work against oxygenation by forcing pressure on an already occluded vascular outflow bed. Proning possibly works by increasing pulmonary artery pressure, perhaps pushing back somehow against venoarterial shunting manifesting as this altitude-sickness type hypoxemia..
 

TheyCallMeArgon

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There almost zero real science in medicine. The entire history of the field is treatments which were later found to not just be useless but harmful. The world would be a much better place if the medical-pharmaceutical complex was destroyed.
 

Garfisch

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There almost zero real science in medicine. The entire history of the field is treatments which were later found to not just be useless but harmful. The world would be a much better place if the medical-pharmaceutical complex was destroyed.
I both agree and disagree. The 'science' in medicine is often testing the limits of human folly through empiricism, but arguably that is part of its 'art' - learning from mistakes. You cannot really learn from a mistake unless you first make it. The trick is then to record the results and ensure others don't make that mistake by exploring why it was a mistake, and making the results of your enquiry public.
The public relations myth of 'science' is what is presented as science nowadays tbh.
 

Elara

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It sounds as if the disease might be causing venoarterial shunting within the pulmonary vasculature. Some have also suggested a possible hemoglobinopathy - affecting the ability of red blood cells to carry oxygen. Another possibilty is a microvascular thrombotic phenomenon where there is a widespread partial blockage of very small lung blood vessels by tiny blood clots or protein deposits. The mistake many critical care doctors made initially has been in treating the disease as JUST A FLU BRO when in fact it is something different.

I don’t think the article is saying ventilators do more harm than good. Ventilators can do harm in all diseases where they are part of the management - the trick is to use them when there are no other options and the benefit outweighs the risk. Following some opinions published by Chinese ICU doctors, western docs have been ventilating people too early before exhausting the other opportunities and causing net harm rather than good.

About 10 years ago an international team of doctors scaled Mount Everest and started testing each others’ blood oxygen measurements in a lab near the summit approaching the ‘death zone’. They found these were so low, that they couldn’t see how they were alive based on their experiences of the same with sick people, yet their brains and other organs seemed to be working more or less fine. They concluded that some of the techniques doctors are routinely using to estimate oxygen availability to body tissues in guiding decisions to ventilate people must be wrong. The SARS experience must be drawing some light back on this.
Exactly. Which is why didier raoult in France suggested hydroxychloroquine as it blocks covid attaching to blood cells and stops the hypoxia.
 

Garfisch

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Which is why didier raoult in France suggested hydroxychloroquine as it blocks covid attaching to blood cells and stops the hypoxia.
People are awaiting better trial results obviously.
 

JR_Rustler_III

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The public relations myth of 'science' is what is presented as science nowadays tbh.
"Science" is a label you put on propaganda to make dumb people accept it, and give smart people who are too lazy to think for themselves a false sense of righteousness
 

JR_Rustler_III

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People are awaiting better trial results obviously.
Given that there's no time for trials, and it's a harmless and inexpensive medication, logic dictates that you just give it to everybody who tests positive and see what happens.
 

Garfisch

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Given that there's no time for trials, and it's a harmless and inexpensive medication, logic dictates that you just give it to everybody who tests positive and see what happens.
You'd think so, but trials have a history of exposing unexpected excess mortalities related to treatment rather than disease. The drug isn't 100% 'safe'. People want more data suggesting benefit exceeds risk.
 
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