Sun Tzu Is Boomer-Tier Gook Worship

GoodOlboY

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I am sick and tired of hearing about the "wisdom" of Sun Tzu. I only got through a few chapters of The Art of War and couldn't continue. It felt very effiminate.

The Art of War is a Boomer meme. It was popularized with the ending of the Vietnam War and all that ridiculous kung fu pop culture. This coincided the cultural divorce of Whites from their heritage and the excuses that followed the failure of the Vietnam war.

Yes, I know the book is 2500 years old, but it wasn't even known to European military minds until the 19th century. That means for the 2300 years this philosophy existed it managed to dominate the world zero times all the while being defeated by Whites time and again. Surprise, surprise: American military minds did not even consider the tactics of Sun Tzu until after the vietnam war. Really?????

With soldiers and media opening up the West to Asian culture, there also was a need to explain why the US took 15 years to fail to defeat the yellow menace. Hence, the sneaky, crafty, wise asian meme. Everyone knows the Vietnam War was about making a bunch of money. The primitive jungle gooks could've been crushed within 3 weeks. That along with the brainwashing of the American public in the post civil rights era, you had an entire country deprived of their heritage and the voids filled with inferior things from third world cultures as presented by Hollywood: one of those being ancient asian wisdom (as if there is any proof it is superior to classical western thought).

When I hear someone cite Sun Tzu's Art of War, this image pops into my head.

Sun Tzu works for the Asian mind and there's nothing wrong with reading the book, but to treat it like it's the classical authority on warfare, especially in the White mind, is absurd.
 

Mike Sinclair

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It's been on the plebe reading list at all the service academies for decades, held in the same esteem as On War by von Clausewitz. It would make sense that that started post-Vietnam, with the wise Asian/mystical Kung Fu nonsense.
 

GoodOlboY

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It's been on the plebe reading list at all the service academies for decades, held in the same esteem as On War by von Clausewitz. It would make sense that that started post-Vietnam, with the wise Asian/mystical Kung Fu nonsense.
I need to read "On War" though it was influenced heavily by enlightenment principles. I'd really like to get some recommendations for ancient roman or medieval Europe war philosophy.
 

bisonportugal

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Didn't Napoleon like this book?
 

Angryguy

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How you described sun tzu I feel about dragon boat racing. We used to have the tradition of regatta's in the west. All purely white events have been abandoned and around 20 years ago beta males in the west decide to introduce or outright invent asian dragon boat racing. Everyone hopes on board " isnt it great exercise" " wow it's so traditional". You know what was traditional and great exercise? Rowing. I really hate this shit as all the beta gags that partake in it have no respect for their own traditions.
 

GoodOlboY

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So who wrote and dominated the European Art of War throughout the centuries?

Vlad the Impaler?
That's kind of why I started the thread. Beside "On War", I don't know other European classics. I'd like to get some suggestions.
 

Highlander

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I don't think there's a general consensus due to all the Brother Wars we've had.

We'd have to look through each individual country.
 

GoodOlboY

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Case in
How you described sun tzu I feel about dragon boat racing. We used to have the tradition of regatta's in the west. All purely white events have been abandoned and around 20 years ago beta males in the west decide to introduce or outright invent asian dragon boat racing. Everyone hopes on board " isnt it great exercise" " wow it's so traditional". You know what was traditional and great exercise? Rowing. I really hate this shit as all the beta gags that partake in it have no respect for their own traditions.
Case in point: paddling is an extremely inferior form of locomotion in open water compared to rowing. Leave it to White people to figure out how to move a boat through the water using a combination of the largest muscle groups in the body.

It is widely understood that pulling is the strongest range of motion in the human body.
 

Pandadude12345

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Pandadude12345
I am sick and tired of hearing about the "wisdom" of Sun Tzu. I only got through a few chapters of The Art of War and couldn't continue. It felt very effiminate.

The Art of War is a Boomer meme. It was popularized with the ending of the Vietnam War and all that ridiculous kung fu pop culture. This coincided the cultural divorce of Whites from their heritage and the excuses that followed the failure of the Vietnam war.

Yes, I know the book is 2500 years old, but it wasn't even known to European military minds until the 19th century. That means for the 2300 years this philosophy existed it managed to dominate the world zero times all the while being defeated by Whites time and again. Surprise, surprise: American military minds did not even consider the tactics of Sun Tzu until after the vietnam war. Really?????

With soldiers and media opening up the West to Asian culture, there also was a need to explain why the US took 15 years to fail to defeat the yellow menace. Hence, the sneaky, crafty, wise asian meme. Everyone knows the Vietnam War was about making a bunch of money. The primitive jungle gooks could've been crushed within 3 weeks. That along with the brainwashing of the American public in the post civil rights era, you had an entire country deprived of their heritage and the voids filled with inferior things from third world cultures as presented by Hollywood: one of those being ancient asian wisdom (as if there is any proof it is superior to classical western thought).

When I hear someone cite Sun Tzu's Art of War, this image pops into my head.

Sun Tzu works for the Asian mind and there's nothing wrong with reading the book, but to treat it like it's the classical authority on warfare, especially in the White mind, is absurd.
The Duality of Man:

1611023756725.png

That said, We didn't know about the Art of war until the 1800s? How did we manage to encounter them so often, but never even know the book existed?
 

GoodOlboY

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We didn't know about the Art of war until the 1800s? How did we manage to encounter them so often, but never even know the book existed?
Many of the historical problems with understanding Sun Tzu's work can be trace back to its first Western translation. A Jesuit missionary, Father Amiot, first brought The Art of War to the West, translating it into French in 1782.

Unfortunately, this translation started the tradition of mistranslating Sun Tzu's work, starting with the title, The Art of War (Art de la guerre). This title, copied the title of a popular work by Machiavelli, but it didn't reflect Sun Tzu's Bing-fa, which would be better translated as "competitive methods."


We cannot say what effect being translated by a Jesuit priest had upon the text. It was unavoidable that the work's translation reflected the military prejudices of the time era when war was both popular and Christian. It was also unavoidable that most future translations would reflect some of the first translation's prejudices. However, war was on the verge of becoming much less Christian in the West since this time was the era of the French Revolution (1789).


The work might well have slipped into obscurity after its initial publication, but it was discovered by a minor French military officer. After studying it, this officer rose to the head of the revolutionary French army in a surprising series of victories. The legend is that Napoleon used the work as the key to his victories in conquering all of Europe. It is said that he carried the little work with him everywhere but kept its contents secret (which would be very much in keeping with Sun Tzu's theories).


However, Napoleon must have started believing his own reviews instead of sticking with his study of Sun Tzu. His defeat at Waterloo was clearly a case of fighting on a battleground that the enemy, Wellington, knew best. Wellington’s trick at Waterloo was hiding his forces by having them lie down in the slight hollows of this hilly land. This is exactly the type of tactic Sun Tzu warns against in his discussion of terrain tactics.


After Napolean, Sun Tzu's theories made their way into western military philosophy. Many of his ideas are reflected in the ideas of work of Carl von Clausewitz. who defined military strategy as "the employment of battles to gain the end of war."



 

Pandadude12345

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Pandadude12345
Many of the historical problems with understanding Sun Tzu's work can be trace back to its first Western translation. A Jesuit missionary, Father Amiot, first brought The Art of War to the West, translating it into French in 1782.

Unfortunately, this translation started the tradition of mistranslating Sun Tzu's work, starting with the title, The Art of War (Art de la guerre). This title, copied the title of a popular work by Machiavelli, but it didn't reflect Sun Tzu's Bing-fa, which would be better translated as "competitive methods."


We cannot say what effect being translated by a Jesuit priest had upon the text. It was unavoidable that the work's translation reflected the military prejudices of the time era when war was both popular and Christian. It was also unavoidable that most future translations would reflect some of the first translation's prejudices. However, war was on the verge of becoming much less Christian in the West since this time was the era of the French Revolution (1789).


The work might well have slipped into obscurity after its initial publication, but it was discovered by a minor French military officer. After studying it, this officer rose to the head of the revolutionary French army in a surprising series of victories. The legend is that Napoleon used the work as the key to his victories in conquering all of Europe. It is said that he carried the little work with him everywhere but kept its contents secret (which would be very much in keeping with Sun Tzu's theories).


However, Napoleon must have started believing his own reviews instead of sticking with his study of Sun Tzu. His defeat at Waterloo was clearly a case of fighting on a battleground that the enemy, Wellington, knew best. Wellington’s trick at Waterloo was hiding his forces by having them lie down in the slight hollows of this hilly land. This is exactly the type of tactic Sun Tzu warns against in his discussion of terrain tactics.


After Napolean, Sun Tzu's theories made their way into western military philosophy. Many of his ideas are reflected in the ideas of work of Carl von Clausewitz. who defined military strategy as "the employment of battles to gain the end of war."



So, the first Europeans to translate it ended up translating it akin to how someone would translate something in Google Translate Today?
 

GoodOlboY

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This title, copied the title of a popular work by Machiavelli, but it didn't reflect Sun Tzu's Bing-fa, which would be better translated as "competitive methods."
That title makes much more sense.

Your example of Napoleon losing at Waterloo sounds more like a defeat of the ego and disregard for common sense than failing to follow Sun Tzu.

Like I stated, I have no problem with reading the book. I just don't think it has anything particularly Earth shattering to divulge. I think it is overhyped because boomers substitute inferior ancient eastern knowledge and culture for their own. Like @Angryguy mentioned, We don't need to paddle a dragon boat around when we can get in a row boat and do a little better.
 

Mike Sinclair

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I think the principles of Sun Tzu are good but I don't like how it's in chinky sing-song riddle form
When you can snatch this rare Pepe from my hand, only then will you be ready for the mystical teachings of Kung Flu.
 

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I am sick and tired of hearing about the "wisdom" of Sun Tzu. I only got through a few chapters of The Art of War and couldn't continue. It felt very effiminate.
Which translation have you been reading?

If there's one thing I've learned from reading various translations of classic Chinese literature, it's that the handling of translation can make a huge difference.

Some translators can be too literal, and the concepts become vague or confusing as a result.

Others seem to add "embellishments" as if catering to the mystic philosopher-wanker demographic.

I've had the same pocket-sized Thomas Cleary translation for the past 25 years, and it's been fine.

If you've read a fair amount of military strategy manuals, however, you're probably not going to find anything "mind-blowing" either way.

Only so much can be written about the general concepts of logistics, timing, discipline, and adaptability before you're either splitting hairs or repeating yourself.
 

Nexus-9

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If you've read a fair amount of military strategy manuals, however, you're probably not going to find anything "mind-blowing" either way.

Only so much can be written about the general concepts of logistics, timing, discipline, and adaptability before you're either splitting hairs or repeating yourself.
Clausewitz is pretty boss if you dont know him.
9e76f41ff1b50f68c9fdff25bc314d12.jpg

"Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: War is a dangerous business where mistakes that come from kindness are the very worst."


To most military historians and war-mongering armchair generals, Carl von Clausewitz is some stuffy know-it-all jerk that everybody feels like they need to read even though they never do because it's not particularly exciting. His book, On War, is the single most influential military theory text in human history, yet few people can recite any part of it other than the bit about war being "politics by other means".
Well forget all that shit. This guy was the fucking definition of an asskicking German warrior. He was the goddamned Sir Isaac Newton of kicking ass, his book laid out principles that have defined Western military doctrine for the last century, and while engaging the enemy head-on he was wounded twice serving on the front lines as a General for two separate European armies, personally witnessed Napoleon's two greatest defeats, once snuck through enemy lines to convince an entire Corps of infantry to desert their commanding officer, ran the shit at the Berlin War Academy for over a decade, banged a Countess even though he was just a regular commoner, and is still a best-selling author 180 years after his death.


"Given the same amount of intelligence, timidity will do a thousand times more damage than audacity...
if the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will,
he will reach them in spite of all obstacles."

"Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings,
but in maintaining one’s balance in spite of them. Even with the violence of emotion, judgment and principle must still function like a ship’s compass,
which records the slightest variations however rough the sea."

"The invention of gunpowder and the constant improvement of firearms are
enough in themselves to show that the advance of civilization has done nothing practical to alter or deflect the impulse to destroy the enemy, which is central to the very idea of war."
 

UberGruber

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It felt very effiminate.
0_o

I mean I myself put it down halfway through because it felt like it was repeating the same basic themes over and over again and the best parts were all turned into his famous quotes anyway. But, uh... it never felt effeminate. Maybe kind of quaint for someone who's lived past the cold war and understands the advantage of controlling the minds of entire populations doesn't end when the people are no longer actively at war.
 

Conan The Gamer

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I am sick and tired of hearing about the "wisdom" of Sun Tzu. I only got through a few chapters of The Art of War and couldn't continue. It felt very effiminate.

The Art of War is a Boomer meme. It was popularized with the ending of the Vietnam War and all that ridiculous kung fu pop culture. This coincided the cultural divorce of Whites from their heritage and the excuses that followed the failure of the Vietnam war.

Yes, I know the book is 2500 years old, but it wasn't even known to European military minds until the 19th century. That means for the 2300 years this philosophy existed it managed to dominate the world zero times all the while being defeated by Whites time and again. Surprise, surprise: American military minds did not even consider the tactics of Sun Tzu until after the vietnam war. Really?????

With soldiers and media opening up the West to Asian culture, there also was a need to explain why the US took 15 years to fail to defeat the yellow menace. Hence, the sneaky, crafty, wise asian meme. Everyone knows the Vietnam War was about making a bunch of money. The primitive jungle gooks could've been crushed within 3 weeks. That along with the brainwashing of the American public in the post civil rights era, you had an entire country deprived of their heritage and the voids filled with inferior things from third world cultures as presented by Hollywood: one of those being ancient asian wisdom (as if there is any proof it is superior to classical western thought).

When I hear someone cite Sun Tzu's Art of War, this image pops into my head.

Sun Tzu works for the Asian mind and there's nothing wrong with reading the book, but to treat it like it's the classical authority on warfare, especially in the White mind, is absurd.
Well, I'd only take one important teaching from that book, and it is not to waste - or to try to optimize - your resources in a war or conflict of any sort.

The rest of the book is a conglomerate of classical Confucian-Daoist-Buddhist Chinese philosophy that may impact the Western reader at first, given it emphasizes non-action, unconditional submission to your elders or superiors.

I think it was meant to create a strong community feeling among the Chinese people, where the individual is something secondary - some kind of "Obliteration of the Self", in which one's life is regarded as just another cog in the Mother Engine that's China, the Zhou Kingdom (for Sun Tzu), or any other nation creating or promoting that kind of philosophy for their population. And don't get me wrong, it just works.

Chinese nobility either has been creating or promoting this kind of books for thousands of years in China and its predecessor kingdoms before unification. Eventually, even "middle-class" (not poor, with some resources) peasants began to create works of the same kind and believe in those doctrines, thus becoming an incredibly cohesive community - as their schools of thought basically promote unquestionable loyalty, national servitude, and total discipline.

This feeling and thought exist throughout all non-retarded Eastern Asian countries, ranging from higher to lower levels of incidence within each society. AA wrote a great article about community justice in Asia, and how the concept of police completely differs from the one we have here. I think these kinds of works are partly why.

So yes, I had the same feeling about the Art of War at first, but I guess you can actually learn something useful if you read it while having in mind the inherent purpose of the book when it was written. I read the Analects of Confucius and Tao Te Ching, and the core concept is the same: non-action, loyalty to your elders and superiors, discipline - with the Art of War emphasizing non-action.

Again, the most useful teaching in the Art of War is probably the optimization of resources in battle, especially when you don't have the upper hand.
 

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Onviously military theory has come a long way since Sun Tzu, and also Clausewitz.

If you are interested in how it has developed etc., then I highly recommend this book:

The author is an historian for the US Army, and gives a very readable account of how military theory and practices developed. Every major army in the world copied the Prussian/German format of having a general staff, and every major army eventually copied Germany by combining land, air etc and using mission based tactics(Auftragstaktik), to the point where Rommel fan-boy Schwarzkopf copied German ww2 tactics in Kuwait.

It's a really interesting book, and well worth reading.
 

Astral-Pepe

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Yes, I know the book is 2500 years old
Its not that old at all and Sun Tzu most likely never existed. Chinamen lie about everything and they lied about the antiquity of this work.

They didn't invent gunpowder, the compass or noodles either.
 

RedPillStormer

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Don't know what all the hate is about. It's an ok book.

Is the "deception" part getting you mad ? or what ?
 
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