Pauline Christianity

Dr Livci

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Indeed. You refuse to answer because I am right.

You are using stuff written in a book that you say is a bunch of lies and you donโ€™t believe in while simultaneously saying arguments from the other side from this book donโ€™t count because they are lies and you donโ€™t believe in them. How is it possible to have a debate on those terms? Itโ€™s like claiming you proved youโ€™re a better boxer than Floyd Mayweather because you beat him up while he was blind folded and hog tied on the ground.
 

Roy Batty

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You are using stuff written in a book that you say is a bunch of lies and you donโ€™t believe in while simultaneously saying arguments from the other side from this book donโ€™t count because they are lies and you donโ€™t believe in them. How is it possible to have a debate on those terms? Itโ€™s like claiming you proved youโ€™re a better boxer than Floyd Mayweather because you beat him up while he was blind folded and hog tied on the ground.
Lol shut the fuck up and get the fuck out dumbass clown, fuck you.
 

RedPillStormer

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I'm not eager to throw out the idea of angels. A lot of people find the idea comforting.
If demons are real why can't angels be ?

Also, saints are a pretty interesting topic with a lot of major implications. According to the Orthodox, humans cannot create saints, they can only acknowledge the existing ones. But the implications are interesting. That implies that at some point the human/spirit consciousness can be elevated by God. What criteria and what's process ?

Also, if Lucifer was a fallen angel, can it work the other way around ?

The more you dig in the more questions you find.
 

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If this forum falls to Marcionism, it will be a very dark day indeed. All Marcionist heretics will be going to hell. You are not born again, you are not saved. Don't let your justified hatred of Jews corrupt your understanding of Christianity. Nothing that Roy Batty had said is Scripturally backed or historically; it is all conjecture, while all of posts have verse after verse of Scripture to prove the veracity of their words.
At least you'll go to hell for sticking your penis in vagina without getting married first, unlike the Marcionite heretics.
 

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For the sake of argument, let's assume the above is true. How do you explain Jews trying to destroy Christianity and pushing everyone, but mostly the younger generations towards atheism? Surely it's better to be an atheist than to worship Satan? Or do you not believe that that's happening?
IMO Jews are not a 100% unified thing. The ultra-orthodox Jews, liberal reformers, atheists are doing different things. Jewish tradition used to be to adapt to various social climates. For example, powerful Eastern European Jews are Chabat and are highly religious, with their thing being mostly money-making, Hollywood Jews are of the more liberal-atheist variety. So there is a few possibilities here :
1) Some Jews are religious but pretend to be atheist for political reasons
2) The atheist Jews are less about being pro-Yahweh and more about being anti-Jesus. That's Sarah Silverman

It's seems that a lot of US Jews are reactionaries, they are less pro-Jew and more anti-Christian. If that's the case maybe their goal is to first weaken belief in Christ, with a weakened belief in Christ people are more easily subdued into Satanism. That seems to be happening right now. Christianity -> atheism -> social justice and materialism.
 

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That seems to follow logically, yes. Most Christians never knew about the OT and never read it. They prayed to Christ, not to Yahweh. Paul is quite clear that the God he is talking about is all-loving and merciful. I think they'll be OK.
This is a key claim that you should expand on. Because I have personally have seen some stuff that leans towards this.

Consider the following. There is a story of Jephtah's daughter in the Bible. The Jews cared a lot about her story, while Christians dedicated less attention to it.


Jephthah's daughter was not given a central role in many pre-medieval texts: the major exception being the first-century Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum of "Pseudo-Philo", which devoted an entire chapter to her (and gave her the name of "Seila").[6] The French scholar Peter Abelard (d. 1142) praised Selia in his lament Planctus virginum Israel super filia Jephte.[6] In a letter to his lover Hรฉloรฏse d'Argenteuil, Abelard also portrayed Selia as a model for monastic women who devote their lives to God.[6] In other medieval Christian texts, Jephthah's daughter was portrayed as a type of Virgin Mary and her death was likened to the purification of the Virgin.[6]

During the medieval period, some Jewish communities refrained from drinking water from wells and rivers for a few hours at four key times of the year (a custom called the tekufah). In the twelfth century Rabbi Judah the Pious wrote that the tekufah that fell during the month of Tishre was observed because of Jephthah's daughter.[6]

Jephthah's daughter is called "Adah" by the Order of the Eastern Star and is one of its five heroines, representing obedience to duty.[7]
And even here we see the psyop going strong:

Jephthah's daughter, sometimes later referred to as Seila or as Iphis, is a figure in the Hebrew Bible, whose story is recounted in Judges 11. The judge Jephthah had just won a battle over the Ammonites, and vowed that he would offer the first thing that came out of his house as a burnt offering to Yahweh. However, his only child, an unnamed daughter, came out to meet him dancing and playing a tambourine (v. 34). She encourages Jephthah to fulfill his vow (v. 36) but asks for two months to weep for her virginity (v. 38). After this period of time Jephthah fulfilled his vow and offered his daughter.

The majority opinion among commentators is that Jephthah killed his daughter as an act of human sacrifice.
[1] There is, however, a minority opinion that Jephthah's daughter spent the rest of her life in seclusion. This is based on considerations such as weeping for her virginity would make no sense if she were about to die (although it would be sensible in light of the Biblical commandment to "be fruitful and multiply", which she would now no longer be able to fulfill). Commentators holding to the minority view include David Kimhi,[2] Keil and Delitzsch,[3] James B. Jordan,[4] and Jehovah's Witnesses.[5]
Notice how Jehovah witnesses are the only ones trying to make it look like the daughter wasn't murdered. If the Yahweh being a Satanic figure theory is correct it would make sense that Yahweh would demand Jephthah murder his daughter. It seems to make a lot less sense from a Christian perspective. It would be one thing if she was being punished for something. But innocent children as human sacrifice ? Does that make sense from Jesus ? But why then did her figure not have a lot of importance and why did the Jews seem to care a lot while Christians seemed to place a lot less importance ?

There are a lot of things like this, the Moses with horns thing, etc. that would indicate that the Old Testament did not play as large of a role for a lot of historical Christians. I think there might be something going on here for sure.

For the record, I will not claim which version is correct, the Yahweh demon God or the other ones. What I am curious about is how much importance did say Medieval Christians place on the Old Testament ? Maybe de-facto the old Testament wasn't really given as much weight to during certain periods as we think. There will be differences in theological thought, but right now I want to see the historical records first.

Last few years I started looking less at Christian interpretations and more at history/chronology and the idea that Yahweh was not the only God in the Old Testament and that he was initially one of a pantheon until he was given exclusive worship by Jews is a theory that has floated around. The actual exact translations and historical records reveal a lot of interesting details that the translated Bible doesn't.

I want to get as much history here as possible. We need to do chronology first. That's a more solid lead than pure theology discussions IMO.
 

Yang Wen-Li

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IMO Jews are not a 100% unified thing. The ultra-orthodox Jews, liberal reformers, atheists are doing different things. Jewish tradition used to be to adapt to various social climates. For example, powerful Eastern European Jews are Chabat and are highly religious, with their thing being mostly money-making, Hollywood Jews are of the more liberal-atheist variety. So there is a few possibilities here :
1) Some Jews are religious but pretend to be atheist for political reasons
2) The atheist Jews are less about being pro-Yahweh and more about being anti-Jesus. That's Sarah Silverman

It's seems that a lot of US Jews are reactionaries, they are less pro-Jew and more anti-Christian. If that's the case maybe their goal is to first weaken belief in Christ, with a weakened belief in Christ people are more easily subdued into Satanism. That seems to be happening right now. Christianity -> atheism -> social justice and materialism.
Ok sure but it still doesn't answer the why. Why would they be against Christianity if we've all been fooled into essentially worshiping Satan? It's been mainline Christian belief that the God of the OT is the God of the NT for centuries - maybe it wasn't emphasized as much at certain points in history, I can agree with that, but 100% in the modern era - which is the era that you've seen Jews absolutely destroy Christianity - it's a fringe belief that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT. So in essence, if it's true, and that the jews know it's true, why would they try to challenge Christianity when its adherents already believe that their God is the God of the OT and the NT, therefore Yahweh, who has also been called Satan here?

Are you making the argument that a portion of the jews just completely lost the plot and are going after Christianity because of resentment and hate? I guess that's possible, and I can't really disprove it if that's the argument you'll go with.
 

Coltraine

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I want to get as much history here as possible. We need to do chronology first. That's a more solid lead than pure theology discussions IMO.
If you mean to do chronology first, then you must take into account the theories of Russell Gmirkin, who I posted a video of his back on the first or second page in this thread. You first need to understand in what context (where, why, when, etc) that the Old Testament itself was first codified. The answers may in fact surprise you. And then there are implications too for early Christianity within these newly considered chronological boundaries.

Here's the video in question once again:

Really, the video above doesn't do as much justice to this guy's theories as do his books, but his books are quite expensive.

Either way, I agree with what you already said above in that the crux of this matter is in with the question of god(s) within the Old Testament. You said something about this above, and Roy has touched on it numerous times himself throughout this thread. This has implications on early Christian theology and context as well. For starters, how can it be that Jews today think and claim that they worship Yahweh while "non-heretical" Christians say and claim the same? These Christians usually side-step the entire question by just declaring that Jews worship Satan or something, and that the Jews' religion is not the religion of the OT in the first place. But that would contradict Jewry's own claims for over 2,000 years of course. Jewry would say that just because their Talmud is their most authoritative text that this does not in any way negate the primacy that Jews place on the Pentateuch. The Talmud, so says the Jews, merely reinforces that Pentateuch, or OT. And unfortunately for Christians, the Jews have claimed the OT for longer than Christians too. There is an historical continuity there with modern-day Jews and the OT which goes back long before Christianity was ever even created.
 

Enwar

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At least you'll go to hell for sticking your penis in vagina without getting married first, unlike the Marcionite heretics.
Learn to understand what you read, and then try to make a joke on these matters.
 

Dr Livci

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These Christians usually side-step the entire question by just declaring that Jews worship Satan or something, and that the Jews' religion is not the religion of the OT in the first place. But that would contradict Jewry's own claims for over 2,000 years of course
With respect Coltraine, in regards to us Christians who say this, quoting Christโ€™s own words to the Pharisees about who their god is is not really a side step imo. Nor siting the Old Testaments own prophecies about God creating a new covenant with the nations. As far as we are concerned this is all explained in the book itself. From there itโ€™s just on the individual whether they place more weight on the words of Christ and the prophets or if they place more weight on the claims of the Pharisees and modern Jews.
 

RedPillStormer

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Why would they be against Christianity if we've all been fooled into essentially worshiping Satan?
They could be fulfilling orders from Satan who wants to prevent Christians from going to Jesus.
 

Coltraine

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With respect Coltraine, in regards to us Christians who say this, quoting Christโ€™s own words to the Pharisees about who their god is is not really a side step imo.
Yes, but don't you understand historical primacy and precedent?

The Jews made their claim first, and the Jews have never stopped making that same claim up until today's time.

Now Christians, of course, have their way of rationalizing this. And yes internally, for Christians alone this makes perfect sense and is consistent. But externally (for instance to a neutral third party) at best you have a situation where the two religions are still fighting over who has the rightful singular claim to the OT and to its God (otherwise why even split off from Judaism in the first place!). At best. The Jews would obviously claim that they have this primacy, and unfortunately for everyone today, it is usually the Jewish take on things that wins out in the end if for no other reason than because the Jews have power today in this modern world. We see this most recently with the Vatican saying that Jews essentially have their own way to heaven- which by-passes Jesus altogether. Or at least that is the implications of what the Vatican has recently said.
 

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Have you a read a single early church father? Even 1? They were commentaries on Genesis about a century after Christโ€™s death. Are you a willful liar or just this ignorant?



Early Christian mystics referenced the OT. WTF are you even on about?



In the OT angles and cannanite false gods donโ€™t=God the father. They are beings with limitations who arenโ€™t all powerful like I said. They are creatures not gods.



This is the heart of the matter really. If your claims are true we have no reason to be Marcionites. Any pagan cosmos will do, or maybe just go be a Nietzschean will to power atheist. It literally doesnโ€™t matter, this stupid fake religion your peddling doesnโ€™t answer where we came from, it doesnโ€™t explain good or evil, it offers nothing. You said in another thread you are interested in collective souls and IIRC esoteric Hitlerism so clearly Marcionism doesnโ€™t work for you in answering why things are the way they are. You already need to look elsewhere. If itโ€™s not good enough and you need to keep shopping than why bother at all.



If you donโ€™t accept my fake version of Paul you think you are better than my fake version of Paul.
Jesus and Paul both quote and allude to various "old testament" books and prophets over and over.

The creation of Canon in the 4th century, which included the OT, doesn't prove that the OT wasn't used before (the NT quotes and alludes to it repeatedly as I said), just that there was no canon before that. The NT would never have been written without the OT
 

Dr Livci

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Yes, but don't you understand historical primacy and precedent?
Yes, this is actually why the prophecies of the OT are very, very important aside from setting the metaphysical foundations for the religion. If we dump the OT as the Marcionites would prefer we would be dumping many, many prophecies of Christ birth and resurrection. We would be dumping the OTs prophecies about the new covenant. We would be giving up a large part of how we explain that modern jews arenโ€™t old Israel.

And again, the OT does not begin with Israelites anyway, it begins with Adam and Eve. The very first humans in paradise were not jews or Israelites.

The Jews made their claim first, and the Jews have never stopped making that same claim up until today's time.
And they never will because itโ€™s in their interest to keep making this claim. What the books said would happen happened in regards to a new covenant, and itโ€™s in their interest to claim what their book said would happen hasnโ€™t happened so they can keep on claiming itโ€™s their exclusive property or they are just loaning it to us as long we lay off the stuff Christ and God said about them.

And yes internally, for Christians alone this makes perfect sense and is consistent. But externally (for instance to a neutral third party) at best you have a situation where the two religions are still fighting over who has rightful claim to the OT and to its God. At best
Than the neutral observer ought to scrutinize which sides claims actually make the most sense in regards to what the book says. Does it seem like the claims of the OT prophets, and itโ€™s description of what Israel would become supports modern Jews or Christians? Of course this kind of thing requires the observer actually believes in God and cares about what the book says to begin with. If not than I concede the Jews claim to being first is the only measure in a context that excludes giving weight to the books content.

Some of the words of the prophets really just rule out conceding modern Jews claims imo

โ€œAnd the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall nameโ€ isiah 62:2

So the prophet is saying the Israelites wonโ€™t even be called Israelites and the Lord will name them. Christians in other words.


โ€œYet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living Godโ€ Hosea 1:10

Does this even remotely sound like modern Jews? It certainly seems like it could be referring to Christendom though.

โ€œYour offspring shall be like wthe dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south, and in you and your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessedโ€ Gen 2814

Again, weโ€™re the Jews ever as numerous as the dust of the earth, spanning in all directions and blessing the earth? That again sure as hell sounds like Christendom but not at all like Jews who were always few and hated everywhere where there werenโ€™t laws against hating them. Anyway to me if you just really looked at Christendom and modern Jews itโ€™s clear these passages arenโ€™t referring to modern Jews.

But yes I know that presupposes caring about the actual text and prophecies and not strictly chain of custody.
 

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@Dr Livci

Honestly, all other or previous arguments aside for a second, I just don't like the idea that I am worshiping the same "god" as modern-day Jews. That "god" is their animating force and ethos and I'd strongly like to believe that I follow and was made in a diametrically opposite mold.

Jesus, I can worship and pray to Jesus. And Jesus can be my God.

But this Yahweh character of the OT- who the Jews simultaneously worship as their own tribal and ethnic God via the OT- I have a problem with. I just can't into it.

So you can probably easily see why what Roy is posting above appeals to me, right?
 

Dr Livci

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Honestly, all other or previous arguments aside for a second, I just don't like the idea that I am worshiping the same "god" as modern-day Jews. That "god" is their animating force and ethos and I'd strongly like to believe that I follow and was made in a diametrically opposite mold.

Jesus, I can worship and pray to Jesus. And Jesus can be my God.
Alright man, just donโ€™t lose site of the fact that Jesus tells us specifically what animates the Jews, and he does so while making references to the OT Abraham and the prophets. If you trust Jesus Christโ€™s words than you shouldnโ€™t have any doubt that you arenโ€™t worshipping the same God as them, and they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

Anyway Iโ€™ll leave it at that.
 

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@Dr Livci

Honestly, all other or previous arguments aside for a second, I just don't like the idea that I am worshiping the same "god" as modern-day Jews. That "god" is their animating force and ethos and I'd strongly like to believe that I follow and was made in a diametrically opposite mold.

Jesus, I can worship and pray to Jesus. And Jesus can be my God.

But this Yahweh character of the OT- who the Jews simultaneously worship as their own tribal and ethnic God via the OT- I have a problem with. I just can't into it.

So you can probably easily see why what Roy is posting above appeals to me, right?
Modern Jews primarily worship the Talmud, not the OT. Also, as Dr Livci says, without the foundation of the OT, there is no Jesus, and there is no Christianity.
Why is it that all the variants of Christianity that exist today are the ones that acknowledge the whole Bible? Because the Faith doesn't work without the whole message.
Any attempt at establishing Christianity without the OT would just end up being a complete perversion of the faith that God intended.
 

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Alright man, just donโ€™t lose site of the fact that Jesus tells us specifically what animates the Jews, and he does so while making references to the OT Abraham and the prophets. If you trust Jesus Christโ€™s worse than you shouldnโ€™t have any doubt that you arenโ€™t worshipping the same God as them, and they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

Anyway Iโ€™ll leave it at that.
Yeah, it's weird, because in my younger days (of being red-pilled) I would have easily just said that a clean break from the OT entirely would be exactly what Western Civilization would need in order to transcend its own implied patterns of Judaizing and then re-Judaizing again and again afterward throughout Euro-history. And E. Michael Jones' The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit (especially Vol I.) provides a thorough history of this Judaizing tendency which always leads to bad outcomes for Euros while simultaneously leading to great outcomes all-around for Jews. Here you have Julian the Apostate, Johannes Reuchlin and Humanism, Thomas Muentzer, the Anabaptist Rebellion, the German Peasant Revolt, Henry VIII's heresy, the rise of Freemasonry, Cromwell's Fifth Monarchy Men, and several other iterations in between that and many more afterwards that I am currently neglecting to mention. ALMOST EVERY HERESY SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME WAS A REVERSION TO THE OLD TESTAMENT AND JEWISHNESS (Marcion's heresy seemingly being the one exception which Jones mysteriously leaves out of his history)!

But as I get older I come more and more around the impossibility of this idea just from a totally pragmatic perspective. I mean, even if what Roy is saying above is objective and historically and theologically true, there's still no way that Christendom is just going to wake up one day and realize the fulfillment of this transcendence.

So for me this is more like a personal thing if that makes sense. And up until now I haven't been able to make sense of it.
 
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Coltraine

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Modern Jews primarily worship the Talmud, not the OT.
Yeah I know that's what you like to tell yourself, but the fact of the matter is that Jews tell themselves that the Talmud merely magnifies, reinforces, and/or fulfills what is already in the OT (analogous to how Christians claim the NT fulfills the OT). I've read enough Jew-for-Jew texts in the past to know too.

And the Jews have claimed that OT far longer than you or than Christendom.
 
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I don't like all these big brained intellectual takes, I like to make things simple(as they most often are).
Did western civilization work with traditional Christianity? Yes it did, for 2000 years. In my opinion that settles it.
All further discussion is maybe interesting or a nice pastime, but not really essential.
 

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but the point is the Christian God can provide blessings in any way he wants, yours apparently literally canโ€™t.
Sorry to interject, and this point has likely already been addressed - but the point here is kind of a null one. According to a pretty massive number of first century christians, God didn't know. That is, the real God. See, he created a few layers of heaven already, and one of his archangels basically got uppity and decided to create on her own because that was sort of her domain, and since she had the holy spirit living inside of her as all of God's creations do, it worked. But she was ashamed because this was a sin, kind of like Adam and Eve realizing that they had sinned, you know, that same realization. When she realized what she had done, she hid her creation on a throne of cloud outside of the higher realms.. outside of heaven. It took him a minute to realize that he had a helluvalot of powers to create, but when he did he created with a vengeance. He made his own angels, he made the heavens and the Earth. He tried to make man, but God showed up and breathed the holy spirit into man - because the accidental god lacked that spark, the holy spirit. He couldn't do it. And so he is a jealous God.

This was the belief of the vast majority of Christianity until Constantine. Literally, no bullshit. Man was created with the holy spirit inside of them as an animating force, the same as the angels. This other God - the Yahweh - does not, and he hates us for it.

I'm not trying to sway you or convert you, and I'm a Catholic - but history is history and if we are to move forward, we absolutely need to understand what came before in it's full, naked truth. This is the truth of what quite a lot of the original Christians believed. They were however a mystery cult, which required a lot of faith invested into very fanciful things. It was rivaled by the cult of Isis, another religion of the same viegn, but designed more for the rich. Christianity was the religion of the slaves.
 

SpiritFocused

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Cave Beast
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@Dr Livci

Honestly, all other or previous arguments aside for a second, I just don't like the idea that I am worshiping the same "god" as modern-day Jews. That "god" is their animating force and ethos and I'd strongly like to believe that I follow and was made in a diametrically opposite mold.

Jesus, I can worship and pray to Jesus. And Jesus can be my God.

But this Yahweh character of the OT- who the Jews simultaneously worship as their own tribal and ethnic God via the OT- I have a problem with. I just can't into it.

So you can probably easily see why what Roy is posting above appeals to me, right?
I think you get the heart of the matter here. You can't help but read the OT, and come to parts that just strike you as deeply wrong. We've been conditioned to ignore that feeling and we create these mental gymnastics to overcome them. Once we've installed these mental gymnastics, then we're vulnerable to further subversion.

That being said, not all of the OT provokes such a reaction, which makes sense when you see how much the OT has been modified and changed over the ages.
 
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