Pauline Christianity

Watchful Sentry

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Mosaic law and the deity associated with it was for jews. Written by jews. Applicable only to jews. For example, under their lending and slave laws (commandments) - special rules for jews. That is to say how they treated each other was different to how non-jews were to be treated.
I really have zero desire to read anything past this statement. It's demonstrably false, in a multitude of ways, which I've already addressed, and I get the impression pointing it out even further would be wasted on you.

You completely misuse the term "Jew". You don't even know what it means. Learn what a "Jew" is, try to forumulate and argument that at least accomplishes the proper use of the term, and then maybe we'll talk.

There were exactly zero "Jews" in Moses' day. It was long before the Judahite's Babylonian captivity, which is when what we know today as "Judaism" came to be. The word "Jew" isn't even used in the Bible until the book of 2 Kings. You'll find it nowhere in the law books, including the Exodus, which involve the Israelite tribes. All 12 of them.

"Judah" was only 1/12 of the Israelite tribes, and the term "Jew" as it is used in the Bible, when discussing Israelites, only refers to the House of Judah or the tribe of Judah or Benjamin specifically. The vast majority of Israelites, 10/12ths of them, were never referred to as "Jews".
 

Dr Livci

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You'll find it nowhere in the law books, including the Exodus, which involve the Israelite tribes. All 12 of them.
Another weird thing with these people that insist that Genesis and the OT is by jews for jews exclusively is that prior to the flood and for some time afterward the narrative doesn’t even contain Israelites, much less jews. Adam, Eve and Noah weren’t Jewish or Israelites obviously or that would mean everyone in the world today would be Jewish. The whole story of Genesis up to Abraham is dealing with humanity in general, not Jews.
 

marcion

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I really have zero desire to read anything past this statement. It's demonstrably false, in a multitude of ways, which I've already addressed, and I get the impression pointing it out even further would be wasted on you.

You completely misuse the term "Jew". You don't even know what it means. Learn what a "Jew" is, try to forumulate and argument that at least accomplishes the proper use of the term, and then maybe we'll talk.

There were exactly zero "Jews" in Moses' day. It was long before the Judahite's Babylonian captivity, which is when what we know today as "Judaism" came to be. The word "Jew" isn't even used in the Bible until the book of 2 Kings. You'll find it nowhere in the law books, including the Exodus, which involve the Israelite tribes. All 12 of them.

"Judah" was only 1/12 of the Israelite tribes, and the term "Jew" as it is used in the Bible, when discussing Israelites, only refers to the House of Judah or the tribe of Judah or Benjamin specifically. The vast majority of Israelites, 10/12ths of them, were never referred to as "Jews".
I'm not even sure what this is or how it applies to the discussion. Maybe that was the intent?

But as we glance down that hallway of semantic mirrors we begin to understand why the OT, its deity and associated jews represent a culture and belief system alien to the Pre-Nicene Christians.

Imagine spending a lifetime of pushing theological square pegs into round holes rather than simply realizing that God was only revealed to us through Christ. It's probably one of the reasons why Dr. Michael Brown is clinically insane.

Anyway, sure, we can circle back to this later I guess.
 

marcion

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I encountered this article again:

I suppose Andrew agrees that Yahweh isn't the same as the Christian God then? I suppose he'd agree with Roy and Marcion in this case.

I get that it's a joke and all, but I don't really understand how you could mock Yahweh while being a Christian, unless you don't believe that Yahweh is Christ's Father, which is what this thread's about. Maybe there's something I'm missing if he's not in agreement this with thread. Maybe it's just a joke about the fact that Jews call God Yahweh and I'm looking into it too deep.
Here's a primer on the etymology of 'judeo-Christian.' It's kind of interesting...and recent.
 
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Yang Wen-Li

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Here's a primer on the etymology of 'judeo-Christian.' It's kind of interesting...and recent.
Thanks for that. I know that it's a recent term that saw use mostly after the second world war, but I'll watch the video now. Can't hurt to know more.

I'm not even sure what this is or how it applies to the discussion. Maybe that was the intent?

But as we glance down that hallway of semantic mirrors we begin to understand why the OT, its deity and associated jews represent a culture and belief system alien to the Pre-Nicene Christians.

Imagine spending a lifetime of pushing theological square pegs into round holes rather than simply realizing that God was only revealed to us through Christ. It's probably one of the reasons why Dr. Michael Brown is clinically insane.

Anyway, sure, we can circle back to this later I guess.
Huh? Well is he correct or not? He's quoting you saying that it's all about the Jews, but he's saying that actually no, it isn't. Do you disagree with what he's saying when he says that the term "Jew" concerns those of the tribe of Judah? If so why?

I guess a question to ask is do you believe that all Israelites are Jews?
 

antirelativist

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😂😂😂 well if your incompetent god hadnt accidentally converted half the world to worshipping the false demiurge than Schofield wouldn’t have had any material to work with in the 1st place. If you should be mad at anyone it should be your own god.

In your religion we have the bad demiurge god who makes bad worlds and laws and the bumbling incompetent good god who accidentally makes everyone worship his arch enemy.
I don't think defending the Scofield reference bible is a good look.
 

Dr Livci

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I don't think defending the Scofield reference bible is a good look.
You saying I’m defending the scofield Bible while upvoting someone who is using low tier and misleading snark to avoid having to defend their stupid positions is really ironic and sad.
 
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Kalli

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I could be completely wrong, but I think that the claim here is that Paul believed that Yahweh is Yaldabaoth of the gnostics, the literal bastard who was given the power to create by his mother, who was an actual divine being. She created him by accident, without permission from God, and so she sent him out beyond the higher realms and hid him on a throne made of clouds.
When Yaldabaoth realized that he had this power, he began creating things and demanded that they worship him as the only God. He only knew about his mother, he had never known of God. He created 365 demons, one for every day of the year. They rule this realm completely. We could be in hell right now according to this line of thought.

There are a lot of stories out there about this in the gnostic texts and the effects it had on humanity and God. It was basically a theft of the worst sort. The trinity is in there, too, but it is the father, the mother and the son.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that Paul wasn't really into this stuff, or at least not the Paul I was taught about. Given, during the time of Paul, Rome was a lively place. You'd have people claiming to be prophets of this or that god on every street corner preaching to the masses whatever their flavor of cult happened to be. You had slaves from every corner of the known world bringing their gods and rituals with them. There was a festival basically every day of the year in Rome. It was diverse and inclusive at this point in history.. and probably a real fun place to be living, tbh. One festival (I think it was Germanic in origin, and brought by the slaves from Germania) was literal public thot patrolling. Men would run through the streets and slap women with sticks while costumed. Sounds like a party, really.

Hell, in the deserts you had men living in caves for religious reasons, others on poles or towers 50 feet up in the air - they had to have food brought to them because they wouldn't come down due to a self imposed religious isolation.

The world was weird back then. But the gnostics existed, and were a valid thing in history. They were a big deal. There is no harm in discussing it, learning about it and understanding it. You don't have to believe it. But applied knowledge is power, especially while discussing something as massive as a political war between the first century christians that has been lost to time. If gnosticism played a role (which it probably did in some form, I mean it has still survived after all of this time too, even after being declared a heresy fss - you cant find any cathar texts, but there's a full library of gnostic ones still) than that is worth discovering. Maybe if looking at it from a theological lens is difficult, looking from a scholarly/historical one can make it easier. I'm not here because I'm looking to believe in anything, I just really like the history of it.
 

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Another weird thing with these people that insist that Genesis and the OT is by jews for jews exclusively is that prior to the flood and for some time afterward the narrative doesn’t even contain Israelites, much less jews. Adam, Eve and Noah weren’t Jewish or Israelites obviously or that would mean everyone in the world today would be Jewish. The whole story of Genesis up to Abraham is dealing with humanity in general, not Jews.
This has been probably my biggest critique against our camp since my ministry to my racisses bretheren began some time ago: Hard fail on accurate understanding on what a "Jew" is. Judaism/Talmudism, Mosaic Law, Israelites, "Jews", Judahites, and Judeans are all separate terms.

Some, apparently, completely fail to have the mental capacity to understand this when it is plainly laid out for them, while others staunchly refuse to acknowledge it because they've invested so heavily in a paradigm that relies on the mistaken use of these terms.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 

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Judaism/Talmudism, Mosaic Law, Israelites, "Jews", Judahites, and Judeans are all separate terms.
Do I have them correct?

Judaism/Taldmudism : the religion that entered the scene after Jesus, the one that modern-day mister Goldberg is an adherent of (or proclaims to be)
Mosaic Law: The law given to Moses from the burning bush
Israelites: The 13 tribes
"Jews": I assume you mean the Jews we know of today
Judahites: those of the kingdom of Judah, no automatic blood relations
Judeans: those of the tribe of Judah, blood relations required

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
And if you know your enemy but not yourself, what happens? This sun zoo chink needs to answer this from beyond the grave
 

Dr Livci

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Some, apparently, completely fail to have the mental capacity to understand this when it is plainly laid out for them, while others staunchly refuse to acknowledge it because they've invested so heavily in a paradigm that relies on the mistaken use of these terms.
It’s all about the paradigms, when it comes to a topic like religion you absolutely have to debate at the level of paradigms. In this thread here it’s been our side trying to take the debate to that level and the other side declining to go there because they won’t talk with people who believe in the OT as Marcion said above.

IMO the best way to resolve issues like this is going to our paradigms and analyzing which ones are the most philosophically sound and have the most explanatory power. That’s what I was trying to do when I said that within the Marcionite paradigm it’s actually their own gods fault that the OT was spread across the planet because the very religion he created was the vehicle for getting everyone to worship the demiurge. You could perhaps say the same about normal Christianity being a vehicle for bad things eventually but unlike the Marcionites our sacred scripture says we should expect exactly what we see today. Our scripture warns us of people saying they are Jews who aren’t, we have scripture warning us of mongrelized Judeans who are twice the sons of hell as the Pharisees. Our scripture details how the Edomites were forced against Gods warning into the Israelite nation, imo that is exactly where the Pharisees originated and it puts Christ words to them about not being his sheep in perfect context.

Our scripture says the church will be in bad shape, the real Israelites won’t even know who they are eventually, we will have imposters claiming to be jews, and basically the world will eventually be so bad that the only reason God doesn’t just get rid of it all is because he promised not to do that again. Our paradigm has explanatory power and our God is always in control because he is the alpha and omega. Marcionism provides none of this. We can only infer their gods plan backfired badly which is certainly possible given that their god has limitations like not being able to stop the bad god from creating a bad world and not being able to provide his flock with a copy of his word after a few centuries.

I’ll give the poster Marcion credit though when he said there is absolutely no argument from scripture he will accept based on his paradigm. What’s sad though is he refused to engage with us dirty OT believers in a paradigm level comparison, which I expected of course because I assume he intuitively understands it’s a debate he can’t win.
 

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The law given to Moses from the burning bush
Given on Mt. Sinai, almost certainly a volcano in the arabian mountains and then the 613 laws of the levitical priests ranging from circumcision to diet restrictions and so on.

I could be completely wrong, but I think that the claim here is that Paul believed that Yahweh is Yaldabaoth of the gnostics, the literal bastard who was given the power to create by his mother, who was an actual divine being. She created him by accident, without permission from God, and so she sent him out beyond the higher realms and hid him on a throne made of clouds.
When Yaldabaoth realized that he had this power, he began creating things and demanded that they worship him as the only God. He only knew about his mother, he had never known of God. He created 365 demons, one for every day of the year. They rule this realm completely. We could be in hell right now according to this line of thought.
Its undisputable that Marcion believed something like that, yes. Marcion also saw himself as a disciple of Paul and his school. We know this because it was with Marcion that the letters of Paul make their first appearance. No Marcion means no Paul. That's how influential this guy was. And clearly, he saw something in Paul that meshed and agreed with his worldview, otherwise he wouldn't have made Paul's letters the central point of the first Christian bible, no?

See, you don't need to quote reams of scripture to understand basic logic and common sense here.

Now, Paul denies that Moses spoke to God on Mt. Sinai. Instead, he insists that Moses was speaking to angels. The church smooths this over by saying that the angels could have been sent by God. Or that, if I understand this correctly, both the OT and Paul are right because it was God AND the angels at the same time. This is all, by definition, narrative/spin/interpretation. All we know as a fact is what Paul himself wrote and he said that Moses spoke to angels, not God. He says that Mosaic law is a "curse" that has been lifted, not fulfilled as Matthew claimed, by Christ.

For Paul, the world has been enslaved, both by our sin and by the power of those ‘angelic’ or ‘daemonian’ (greek term) rulers who reign over the earth from the heavens, and who hold us captive. These angelic beings are referred to as "thrones, powers, dominations, evil in high places and gods of nations".

These "angels" stand between us and Paul's God. Christ was sent by God to give us a lifeline.

So, no, Paul didn't talk about Yalda-whateverhisnameis. But the similarities in his thinking are clear to see for anyone who simply looks at the primary source: his letters, without constantly checking for the correct interpretation that Churchians have subsequently given to explain away the obvious intent of what the man is trying to get across.

AGAIN:

I'm talking about Paul's line of thinking. We have his letters as a primary source, however much edited they may be. Quoting James or Peter or John or Matthew at me is pointless. It's irrelevant to the topic of PAUL and HIS THINKING which is the point of this thread.
 
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Watchful Sentry

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Judaism/Taldmudism : the religion that entered the scene after Jesus, the one that modern-day mister Goldberg is an adherent of (or proclaims to be)
The beginnings of Talmudic literature date back to the time of the Babylonian Exile in the sixth pre-Christian century, before the Roman Republic had yet come into existence. When, a thousand years later, the Babylonian Talmud assumed final codified form in the year 500 after the Christian era, the Western Roman Empire had ceased to be. - Chief Rabbi Joseph Herman Hertz, forward to the first edition, The Babylonian Talmud (London, UK: The Soncino Press, 1935) p. xiii.

When we come to the Babylonian Gemara, we are dealing with what most people understand when they speak or write of the Talmud. Its birthplace, Babylonia, was an autonomous Jewish centre for a longer period than any other land; namely, from soon after 586 before the Christian era to the year 1040 after the Christian era — 1626 years; from the days of Cyrus [King of Babylon] down to the age of the Mongol conquerors! - Hertz, p. xxi.

Mosaic Law: The law given to Moses from the burning bush
It was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Galatians 3 gives a good summary of Mosaic Law. Again, Mosaic Law and Judaism/Phariseeism are completely different things:

"Once men lived by the plain Mosaic law. As parts grew antiquated [according to Jewish reasoning], new interpretations and traditions [of men] grew up about it [replaced it]. Mosaic law [was] developed [by the Jews] into the Mishnah, the Mishnah into the Gemara, the Gemara into innumerable commentaries and codes." - Abram Leon Sachar, A History of the Jews (New York, NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1968) p. 143

Israelites: The 13 tribes
All blood descendants of Jacob/Israel.

"Jews": I assume you mean the Jews we know of today
Yes. Who they are genetically and what they believe.

Judahites: those of the kingdom of Judah, no automatic blood relations
Judahites refers to those genetic Israelites who make up the House of Judah. The House of Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and their Levites primarily. Likely, there was a minority of the other tribes who moved out of the northern kingdom, and became citizens of the southern kingdom, when the northern kingdom began to abandon the true worship of God.

Judeans: those of the tribe of Judah, blood relations required
"Judeans" refers to anyone living in Judea geographically. Kind of how "Americans" or "Californians" refers to anyone living there, regardless of race.

And if you know your enemy but not yourself, what happens? This sun zoo chink needs to answer this from beyond the grave
Maybe a win in spite of oneself.
 

antirelativist

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The world was weird back then. But the gnostics existed, and were a valid thing in history. They were a big deal. There is no harm in discussing it, learning about it and understanding it. You don't have to believe it. But applied knowledge is power, especially while discussing something as massive as a political war between the first century christians that has been lost to time.
This is really the most interesting part about this topic. There is this whole vein of early Christianity that we just never hear about, and apparently there was a concerted effort to erase it from history by the Catholic church. For that reason alone it is worth trying to read the books that they attempted to eradicate.

It is hard to talk about this stuff because people freak out and start wanting to fight just because you brought it up. It seems a lot of people are incapable of considering an idea if they have a conflicting belief, even for the sake of discussion or historical intrigue.
This has been probably my biggest critique against our camp since my ministry to my racisses bretheren began some time ago: Hard fail on accurate understanding on what a "Jew" is.
I have been through a lot of different positions on this topic myself before finally landing on being not entirely sure just what a jew is. I don't think its a failure so much as a mystery. The history of what a jew is has quite frankly been jewed. Are the jews who they claim to be, the descendants of the tribe of Judah? If so, was the tribe of Judah part of God's chosen people as the jews claim? Was 'jew' or 'israelite' actually originally a reference to white people that jews have coopted? Are jews khazars that absorbed pharisaic immigrants centuries after Christ in the name of trade advantage with their neighbors? Are they the cursed descendants of Canaan? Are they the cursed descendants of the offspring of the watchers and human women? Are they the Set-worshipping descendants of an offshoot of a northern Indian tribe of rebel Atlanteans that fled to northern Egypt after the war in the Mahabarata? That last one is a real position btw.

I don't know. The whole topic is difficult to know for sure. I know I don't like the guys calling themselves jews right now. Very bad people.
 

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It is hard to talk about this stuff because people freak out and start wanting to fight just because you brought it up. It seems a lot of people are incapable of considering an idea if they have a conflicting belief, even for the sake of discussion or historical intrigue.
Are you implying the people trying to actually debate the Marcionites don’t want to have a discussion or are you just totally lacking any kind of self awareness?

I don't interact with confirmed judaizers
 

antirelativist

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Are you implying the people trying to actually debate the Marcionites don’t want to have a discussion or are you just totally lacking any kind of self awareness?
I'm implying that the OP started this thread to talk about an interesting topic that doesn't get a lot of play and it was immediately dragged into being a debate in the first response. Why is this a debate all of the sudden? I tried to throw in some interesting information on the first page for people who might be interested in the topic, and it went right back to being a debate. That is why I stopped posting on the first page.
 

Roy Batty

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On the topic of heresy.

The main detractors here like to throw the accusation of heresy around, as if it proves anything. I mean, it's quite obvious to anyone that knows anything about the religion that the Marcionite/Pauline position is not the established mainstream current of Churchian thought. Calling it a heretical position over and over and over again does literally nothing to advance the conversation. Any objective scholarly work on the early church that comes up with an alternative explanation for what was going on back then is going to be immediately rejected, because the church claims to have the ultimate end all be all truth of what did or didn't happen and how it should be interpreted. So, the fact that we are discussing a heresy isn't even disputed, not by me, not by anyone taking my side, and not for a moment.

It's not a question of whether or not what we're discussing is a heresy. It's been clearly labeled a heresy by the church. No one is denying that. The real question is whether or not the claims being made might be true or not.

Obviously, bible-thumpers aren't really approaching this with an open-mind. All they do is repeat dogma and shower condemnations on anyone who deviates from the party line. If something contradicts the official narrative that the media church is pushing, then that's enough for them to reject it. In other words, they're not concerned with whether something is true or not, but whether its correct by the standards of the church or not - that's it. It's basically the same "Trust the Experts" mentality that we mock in Branch Covidians.

But the NPC mentality is everywhere around us. Even in our own camp, sadly.

What's funny is that there are a lot of heretics ITT throwing around the label heretic. Consider: Protestants are heretics in the eyes of Catholics and Orthodox. Orthodox are heretics in the eyes of Catholics and Protestants. Christian Identity, an offshoot of Protestantism, is considered heretical by everyone. You can claim that the OT was about White, northern europeans and make a White Hebrew cult if you so choose. But to pretend that this is a mainstream Christian view? Really?

Here's the official stance on the issue: Catholics and Orthodox and mainstream Protestants all believe that the stories of the OT are about the Jews. They believe that Jesus was a Jew. They believe that Jews then converted and became Christians and embraced the gentiles in spiritual brotherhood. The reason why they never liquidated the Jews in Europe throughout all of history is because they claimed that, in time, the Jews would convert to Christianity, just like the first Jews did in the times of Christ and the Apostles. This was the mainstream Christian view on Jews for centuries, although it's been quietly dropped in the last century by Protestants and, thanks to Vatican II, increasingly Catholics as well because demanding Jews convert is too un-PC.

So the heretics playing around with the definitions of the word Jew to make their White Hebrew model work are just as heretical as any Paulite/Marcionite.

Which is fine, by the way. I don't judge things based on what authorities try to bully me into thinking. I try to think for myself and seek the truth, even if it runs counter to the mainstream narrative. I took the red-pill and I've never looked back since. I'm a race heretic, anti-semite heretic, muhsogenist heretic, and death camp denier heretic because I love the truth more than I love any orthodoxy.

And I'm sure most people on this forum feel the same way as well so these hysterical freaks ITT need to get off their high horses and chill the fuck out or leave the thread.
 

Dr Livci

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The real question is whether or not the claims being made might be true or not.
We finally agree on something. Yes, this is the real question. It is possible that everything you are saying is true. It seems very, very unlikely imo but sure it’s possible and the fact that there are almost no Marcionites left isn’t a proof of anything really. With religion faith is a factor, and that begs the question of which faith actually makes the most sense on its baseline. Thats why the paradigm, the underlying suppositions and philosophical foundations of the system are way more important than just a general summary of the faith which is all your side here has been giving really.

Obviously, bible-thumpers aren't really approaching this with an open-mind. All they do is repeat dogma and shower condemnations on anyone who deviates from the party line. If something contradicts the official narrative that the media church is pushing, then that's enough for them to reject it. In other words, they're not concerned with whether something is true or not, but whether its correct by the standards of the church or not - that's it. It's basically the same "Trust the Experts" mentality that we mock in Branch Covidians.
Speaking for myself the entire reason I even asked about how you can justify believing in the Marcionite system to begin with is specifically because I accept that absolutely no argument from scripture will work within your paradigm were the Patristic interpretations don’t matter at all. That’s fine, I’m more than happy to concede you that. But moving on to the actual paradigm of Marcionism, what exactly does your god have to show for all his work that would inspire you to trust him? Why did he even bother abolishing the mosaic law when it only applied to Jews in the first place?

It really appears to me that Marcions god has serious limitations since his plan to redeem humanity ended in the OT being spread to the ends of the earth. It seems like the demiurge is actually better at getting things done than the good god, and the good god hasn’t even managed to leave us any scripture to make sense of what’s going on. Basically this god has literally nothing to show for his work besides a sect that died out fairly quick in the scheme of things. Sense you have no gospel that you consider valid can you really even be sure that Christ is coming back? Any reassurance the demiurge is going to lose? Maybe the good god can save our souls if we reject the OT and most the NT but since the material realm is the demiurges home territory the good god really can’t help us because he isn’t all powerful? His speciality is the realm of forms and spirit so in the here and now we are just sort of on our own, we have no totally trust worthy scripture or absolute certainty to fall back on. We can be spiritual, but spirituality not anchored in dead absolute certainty about the world and where it’s going isn’t a solid foundation is it?

As a matter of fact since the material world was flawed and evil and is basically an abortion from the beginning since the fall is just fiction than why not just kill yourself to get the hell out of here ASAP? I’m being completely serious here, if there is no ancestral sin and Genesis is fiction than sin has nothing to do with man. Man was just screwed from the beginning because the material world itself is the problem, not mans spiritual disposition. No material, no problem so just kill yourself. Unless you believe in reincarnation but you haven’t said anything about that.

These are serious questions and I’m not trying to be an ass on purpose here. Since Marcion just won’t talk to us can you maybe fill in some details beyond summarizing the faiths claims about Paul and the OT? Can you give us details of your god, how much authority does he even have over the material world? Is he just antithesis to it? If he is powerful enough to raise the dead and deify material flesh than why couldn’t he just prevent the demiurge from making a bad world in the first place? If he couldn’t prevent it than why should we be relying on him for anything in this life?

I don’t expect you to answer all these questions, but if you are serious about a faith that you are basing your life on and trusting your soul to than they are questions you ought to be able to address and I don’t see how Marcionism provides any answers.
 

Roy Batty

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Your whole problem with Marcionism/Paulism seems to be centered around the personal belief that it is simply too grim and dark to accept. That's fine and you're entitled to your opinion because I am not trying to convert you. Even if you were to accept what I am saying about Paul and Marcion and the Early Church, I would still encourage everyone to go to whatever church they go to now to find normal, well-adjusted families to socialize with and to leave the cities.

It really appears to me that Marcions god has serious limitations since his plan to redeem humanity ended in the OT being spread to the ends of the earth. It seems like the demiurge is actually better at getting things done than the good god, and the good god hasn’t even managed to leave us any scripture to make sense of what’s going on. Basically this god has literally nothing to show for his work besides a sect that died out fairly quick in the scheme of things.
This line of thinking is so backwards and flawed that it boggles belief that I am hearing it on the Stormer forum. Let's tweak it a bit to highlight how absurd it is:

"It really appears to me that HITLER had serious limitations since his plan to redeem GERMANY ended in COMMUNISM being spread to the ends of the earth. It seems like THE JEWS are actually better at getting things done than HITLER..."

And isn't Mein Kampf one of the most banned books ever? Just buying or checking it out at the library is enough to get you put on a watch list by the FBI. National-Socialism is the most demonized and maligned system/ideology in all of human history.

Does any of this prove anything about the Nazis, though? Or do the victors write history and destroy the sacred texts of the vanquished? How is the story of Marcion any different?

Now, you've raised this point several times in this thread and I do think it appears to be the main stumbling block in coming to grips with what I'm saying, namely, you're asking "how could God let this happen? isn't Good supposed to win in the end?" So let's circle back to it later, OK?

These are good questions, but they are the wrong questions asked the wrong way, with the wrong intentions.

You've taken the metaphysical givens of Churchianity. (Ex. God is good, God created this material world.)

You've taken the structure and formula that they have for understanding the world. (Ex. I read the Bible and follow the rules and the priests and I am saved)

And then, you're trying to plug the new variables I've introduced into the old operating system and, surprise, surprise, you're getting a flashing red error sign. (Ex. How can I be saved if I don't have rules to follow from a book God left me? Marcion's book is gone so how can his thing even work, hurr durr)

I don’t expect you to answer all these questions, but if you are serious about a faith that you are basing your life on and trusting your soul to than they are questions you ought to be able to address and I don’t see how Marcionism provides any answers.
I don't think you really want to understand Pauline/Marcionite thinking or the mystical Christian approach. If you did, you'd have to leave behind a lot of what you know and you are clearly incredibly emotionally invested in whatever thing you've got going on now.

Long story short, you're getting frustrated that the new stuff that I am saying isn't meshing with what you think a religion is supposed to be all about. You have this formula in your head: 1) God gave sacred book 2) I read and follow sacred book 3) I follow rules of sacred book 4) Priests confer salvation on me.

And Pauline thinking isn't about that at all.

It's more like 1) Christ appeared to Paul in an ecstatic, mystical vision and to other men who were initiated in the holy mysteries since then (possibly even before then as well) 2) I prepare myself physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually to grow closer to this God 3) I reject any and all religious rules that get in the way of me reuniting with this God 4) I take responsibility for my own soul and its salvation

The very idea that just believing the right things - Confessional faith - is enough to be saved is not Pauline at all. You people take it to such extremes that if someone believes there are 11 angels in heaven as opposed to 7, they're damned to hell, just because they believe the wrong thing. It's absurd. You can't use logic or science to determine the structure of the heavens and the angels and God's nature, so really, it amounts to taking a guess in the dark about whose account of all that is true or not. In other words, your concept of salvation is based on literally nothing but a normie's wild guess about which of the thousands of Christian and non-Christian for that matter sects is correct and has the right set of beliefs that he is supposed to just believe in. Because to get into heaven, you have to take a timed test outside the gates where you fill in all the right answers, apparently.

Nor is the idea that just doing some rituals or charity or following some diet restrictions correct either. Mystical Christianity is about leveling up and achieving Christ-likeness and it is an alien concept to most Churchians.

Furthermore, religion is not supposed to be about having a nice little bedtime story that you can believe in when the going gets tough and you're down on your luck. It's not about being reassured that in the end, the good guys win. It's not about heavenly dick-measuring where you puff out your chest and say that the Jews' Yahweh killed more people than Paul's Agnostos Theos therefore he must be stronger. This amounts to a fucking child braggin that their dad works for Nintendo and can beat up your dad.

It's ridiculous.
 
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Roy Batty

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These are serious questions and I’m not trying to be an ass on purpose here. Since Marcion just won’t talk to us can you maybe fill in some details beyond summarizing the faiths claims about Paul and the OT? Can you give us details of your god, how much authority does he even have over the material world? Is he just antithesis to it? If he is powerful enough to raise the dead and deify material flesh than why couldn’t he just prevent the demiurge from making a bad world in the first place? If he couldn’t prevent it than why should we be relying on him for anything in this life?
You've been an insufferable ass in this thread and in the other thread I started. You've been belligerent and intentionally obtuse to slow down the discussion and make people flee the thread out of frustration. You did this deliberately because this was your intention. I'm sure that in your mind, you justified it as saving souls from heresy or something equally inane and retarded. And your new "reasonable" demeanor is just a cheap disguise.

And now you demand that I outline an entire cosmology and metaphysics for you, post-haste. I don't take orders from you, buddy. Besides, all of it is just a quick google search away. If you had any real desire to learn more, you would have already.

I was going to get to a 'Pauline Metaphysics' eventually, because it follows logically that if you leave one metaphysical model behind, you start looking for another. But you successfully wasted the better part of a week and a lot of intelligent people's energy and time. So now, there's going to be a delay with that. Frankly, it's my thread, and I planned to talk about Mark next, and you and that freak Enwar aren't going to change that. See, metaphysics is a serious topic and one worth putting effort into. It's not as easy as writing emotional verbal diarrhea or non-stop copy-pasting walls of Scripture, so it will take some time.

I may even make a separate thread for it.

But I guess some people really do feel content with a literalist origin story that says the world is 6.5k years old and that a tribe of desert nomads that fleece, offend and murder anyone that they happen to encounter are G*d's Chosen. Well, they're not going to get that from me or the mystical Christians for that matter. At this point, I'd advise them to just swap out the Torah for the Harry Potter series, for all the good it will do them.
 
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Roy Batty

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From the article masterchief wrote today:

“The abiding Christian conviction is that Jesus Christ is the new way of salvation. However, this does not mean that the Torah is diminished or no longer recognised as the ‘way of salvation for Jews,'” wrote Cardinal Kurt Koch, whose Vatican department covers religious relations with Jews.
A lot to unpack here. Seems the Catholic Church is now saying that the Torah is the the "way of salvation for Jews". Turns out they don't need to covert after all. Moses and Yahweh are sufficient.

As for Protestants:

You should note that Protestant heretics have been saying this for years – John Hagee was I believe the first one. He said that Jews are saved because of their blood, and they don’t need Christ, which is effectively the same thing the Vatican is now indicating.
Interesting, no?
 

Dr Livci

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"It really appears to me that HITLER had serious limitations since his plan to redeem GERMANY ended in COMMUNISM being spread to the ends of the earth. It seems like THE JEWS are actually better at getting things done than HITLER..."
Holy non contextual comparisons. Great men can be overcome, men can ultimately be vanquished. This doesn’t prove they are wrong but it’s strong evidence they aren’t gods. I imagine even Hitler wouldn’t be comfortable being compared to a god. If your god suffers from the same limitations as Hitler than it implies there are some things he can’t do. This is the whole point of the argument, is your god really omnipotent and over all creation and worthy of being worshipped and the title of God.

And isn't Mein Kampf one of the most banned books ever? Just buying or checking it out at the library is enough to get you put on a watch list by the FBI. National-Socialism is the most demonized and maligned system/ideology in all of human history.
I have a good translation, so do some of my buddies. With the internet you can find it. With a concerted effort you could maybe get rid of all copies in a century of course but seeing as how Hitler isn’t God I won’t hold it against him unlike someone I’m supposed to believe is God and capable of doing anything he wills.

The very idea that just believing the right things - Confessional faith - is enough to be saved is not Pauline at all. You people take it to such extremes that if someone believes there are 11 angels in heaven as opposed to 7, they're damned to hell, just because they believe the wrong thing
Lol no dude. Even the Saints had different takes on some of the more esoteric parts scripture. The only absolutely non negotiable part of the faith in my branch of Christianity is this:

“We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end”

You do have to absolutely believe all the above. Now there is no specific reference to the OT there but if you don’t believe the OT narrative of creation you can’t believe the above either. But there is no angle counting involved.

You can't use logic or science to determine the structure of the heavens and the angels and God's nature, so really, it amounts to taking a guess in the dark about whose account of all that is true or not
You are correct that you can’t use logic to unlock the mysteries of reality and creation. However the less of Gods revealed word you have the more you have to speculate and use logic no? It’s more dark the less guidance you have from above right? And shouldn’t Gods revealed word line up with logical deductions and observations of reality? Like if events in the world line up with scripture it implies Gods word is trustworthy. From there we can conclude that when he says that you can only draw closer to him through Theosis and asceticism we ought to trust him on that as well. The whole package fits together, logic plays a role as well as doing things that might seem illogical like trying to live like a monk as best you can. But since logic itself is only possible because of God it has its place, but being part of the created order logic isn’t the end all be all shouldn’t be idolized. However with in Macrionsim what is logic? Who set the laws of logic, the bad god or the good god? We don’t know so can you even trust it?

Thats not an idle question, if the bad god set the laws of logic for the material world they are literally evil and thus being anti logic is good. Thats got some weird and bad implications imo.

In other words, your concept of salvation is based on literally nothing but a normie's wild guess about which of the thousands of Christian and non-Christian for that matter sects is correct
So is yours my friend. This is why really scrutinizing the paradigms is where the meat of the conversation is at.

Nor is the idea that just doing some rituals or charity or following some diet restrictions correct either. Mystical Christianity is about leveling up and achieving Christ-likeness and it is an alien concept to most Churchians.
Couldn’t agree more. Doing charity and good works just so you look and feel nice is for Pharisees. That why when we give we are instructed not to let the right hand know what the left is doing. That’s why the fools for Christ went out of their way to look stupid. Christ himself was hated and murdered though he did more for humanity than anyone. His example is we do good works because that’s what people who love their neighbor do, not because you expect a reward or validation. However it follows that if you love your neighbor you will do good works. Obviously a good tree will bare good fruits.

Furthermore, religion is not supposed to be about having a nice little bedtime story that you can believe in when the going gets tough and you're down on your luck.
I know it isn’t part of your cannon but have you read Revelation? Talk about grim dark. Remember how Christ said following him is like carrying the cross? It seems like we are actually warned that no matter what life is going to be hard. As a matter of fact if everything was fine than the scriptures would be incorrect. Anyway its odd that you imply I just want a self help religion for when I’m down on my luck but I’m the one actually concerned with being able to justify believing in the first place.

It's not about heavenly dick-measuring where you puff out your chest and say that the Jews' Yahweh killed more people than Paul's Agnostos Theos therefore he must be stronger. This amounts to a fucking child braggin that their dad works for Nintendo and can beat up your dad.
It’s actually the inverse, it’s about what God can save the most people. It’s about what God we can trust, it’s about what system is consistent. Again, if god is limited, if god is not in control, than I see no reason to worship him no matter how well intentioned he might be. If god did not set the laws of the created order and they originated elsewhere than his laws about how I should live in the created world aren’t really laws they are just suggestions. If god didn’t create the material world than there are some things that are just out of his hands and purview. It’s seriously analogous to a man suggesting you worship him even though there are some things he just can’t do for you.

Do you not understand that the Christian God doesn’t forbid idol worship because it hurts his feelings but because it’s literally beneath our dignity? We are even above the Angels hence Lucifer’s jealousy. However we can’t ever create Angels so no Angel ought to worship us. There is someone out there above all of us. Yet in your scheme who is this? We know of 2 gods at least but maybe there is one above them? Since in your scheme scripture isn’t that important and it’s just about spirituality we ought to try and figure out who this god is?

I was going to get to a 'Pauline Metaphysics' eventually, because it follows logically that if you leave one metaphysical model behind, you start looking for another.
Please do, I have been asking you to get into this specifically over and over. Just restating your thesis and giving outlines is not getting to the heart of any religious system. You have stated here why you think my model is wrong because you think we put to much stock in scripture which makes sense because you don’t have any scripture at all. But not having any scripture does have logical implications, like pretty much your religion is purely a personal thing that’s open to men’s subjective opinions and experience. Like I said, if a Marcionite decides the most spiritual thing was going pure spirit and killing himself than there isn’t any guidance from above telling him not to if that’s his subjective experience. If a Marcionite decided the ultimate evil was bringing another soul into the material world maybe he should just cut his balls off. Marcionism does share a very negative view of the material world after all which is why the sect pretty much went full gnostic eventually.

If you disagree strongly with what I said there than you are implying that heresy can exists even for Marcionites but without Gods revealed world its really an impossible knot to untangle. You can’t get out of this trap anyway that I can see. But like I said please make your thread about the metaphysics of your system, I don’t see where you can draw them from without any guidance from above if we are talking about the religion as a whole, I don’t see how you can have anything besides a system that works for you in particular but than the whole religion just boils down to spiritual individualism. In that case why do you need god in the first place?
 
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Watchful Sentry

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I have been through a lot of different positions on this topic myself before finally landing on being not entirely sure just what a jew is.
Astral-Pepe did a good post breaking down part of this. My posts on the subject explain the nuts and bolts of it & I've linked several places to a 5 part series by Pastor John Weaver that goes over this in great detail.

I don't think its a failure so much as a mystery.
I can see how it would seem mysterious, but the reason for that is Judeo Christian blinders people wear on the subject. I'd say it's more accurately deliberate confusion and deception. The first obstacle the "Jew" had to gain a foothold into the West was to pervert the religious institutions. This confusion/deception about their identity is crucial to that.

The history of what a jew is has quite frankly been jewed.
Indeed!

Are the jews who they claim to be, the descendants of the tribe of Judah?
Jews rarely peg the specific tribe of Judah describing themselves. The lie that "Jews" means all 12 tribes of Israel, and that they are these "Jews", seems to be their go to. Going any further than that might start to raise questions.

If so, was the tribe of Judah part of God's chosen people as the jews claim?
Judah was, yes. That's easily proven a multitude of ways. Yeshua (Jesus) was from the tribe of Judah.

I'm sure there's a Jew somewhere that makes specific claims about Judah, but again they claim the title "Jews" today, and falsely claim to be those people. This all has its roots in 726 BC:

"Therefore Yahweh was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. . . .Until Yahweh removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof." -2 Kings 17

Whoever the real Israelites are, they were removed from the land we call Israel/Palestine today waaaay back in 726 BC. There was only a small remnant of the tribe of Judah left in the land of Israel/Palestine. These non-Israelite people were moved in by the king of Assyria, and bastardized the religion of Israel:

"Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, Carry thither one of the priests whom ye brought from thence; and let them go and dwell there, and let him teach them the manner of the God of the land. Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear Yahweh. Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt. . . and the Sepharvites burnt their children in fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim. . . and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places. . . Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not Yahweh, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which Yahweh commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;" - 2 Kings 17

It's all very strait forward. In 726 BC, the overwhelming majority of genetic Israelites were removed from their country and replaced with these various non-Israelite foreigners. They perverted the religion of the Israel and, over time, began falsely claiming the identity of Judah.

In the time of Esther, who was a remaining blood Judahite, around 480 BC:

"And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them." - Esther 8

The "people of the land" are non-Israelites. This is 250 years after the vast majority of Israelites were removed from the land. And, 480 years before Jesus came.

Just as an aside, for comparison, look at the demographic shift we've had here in America since 1776, which happens to be about 250 years as well. We voluntarily changed our immigration laws, by abandoning God's law that demands racial segregation, in favor of Jews Talmudic law, but the comparisons here are many and relevant.

At any rate, the idea that there was a "homogeneous" population of what we call "Jews" today in the land of Palestine, from the time of Abraham to the time of Jesus, is laughably impossible and demonstrably false. Without being conscious of it, this is another fallacy that is assumed by the "Jew" confusion/deception.

Was 'jew' or 'israelite' actually originally a reference to white people that jews have coopted?
"Jews" wouldn't pretend to be white people! Shame on you for suggesting it!

Are jews khazars that absorbed pharisaic immigrants centuries after Christ in the name of trade advantage with their neighbors?
There are two distinctions between Jews: Ashkenazi and Sephardic (Sepharvites above). Neither are genetic Israelites.

Are they the cursed descendants of Canaan?
The Sephardic "Jews" have Canaanite blood.

Are they the cursed descendants of the offspring of the watchers and human women?
This goes into Cain. Different camps on this, but ultimately irrelevant as either way modern "Jews" are not the Israelites of the Bible.

Are they the Set-worshipping descendants of an offshoot of a northern Indian tribe of rebel Atlanteans that fled to northern Egypt after the war in the Mahabarata?
There's far flung hypotheses on most subjects.

I don't know. The whole topic is difficult to know for sure. I know I don't like the guys calling themselves jews right now. Very bad people.
Definitely very bad people.

However, the subject is fairly easy to un-Jew by looking in the right places. In fact, the true identity of the "Jews" can be demonstrated using just the Bible alone, the "Jews'" own testimony, secular archeology, and secular history.
 
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